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fishnpole wrote:
Science used to think the world was flat, too,JJ.
As I’ve encouraged for years, then build studies that refute the science the DNR is presenting. This is a much better way to state a case, than the same old complaining, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to support your claims.
Standing up and screaming that the science is wrong, without presenting any scientific alternative, is not only pointless, but it hurts your cause by turning people off.
Based on what I’ve seen/read, I believe hat the netting isn’t helping the lake. I also believe that netting is far from the only issue.
IMHO, the DNR tried to manage ML to be a trophy walleye/pike/muskie/smallmouth lake, and the forage base just could not support all of the above. In the 07-09 period we were catching a huge amount of 24″+ fish that appeared to be emaciated. At the same time the tullibee and perch populations crashed.
IMO, too many apex predators, and not enough feed caused the population to bust. the lack of predator fish in 11-12 that resulted, allowed the perch and tullibee to begin recovering. This provided huge amounts of feed for the ’13 year class of walleye. I certainly could be wrong, as I’m no fisheries expert.
fishnpole wrote:
Many times, the “theories” (scientific or not) are proven wrong by observing the real world. The netting of spawning walleyes is a phenomenon that has been taking place on Mille Lacs for 17 years, now.
Before the advent of gill netting during the spawn, the lake had it’s ups and downs, but in 2012, the walleye population hit an all-time low.
The next two years were late ice-outs, making the gill netting impossible. In fact, in 2013, the ice didn’t go out until a week AFTER opener. So there was no angling pressure either.As a result, we had one of the best hatches ever, with 2014 coming in a close second.
Is there a chance that the huge year classes are attributable to other factors?
One theory being, that the crash of the walleye, perch, and tullibee populations in the same period, created an excess of food sources. Is there potential that these food sources peaked in the absence of predator fish, and the strong population of prey has artificially created opportunities for these year classes?
Just one theory. I’m not capable of creating a study to validate the theory.
JJ wrote:
All hook and line fishing has some hooking mortality. If you’d like to argue about the actual mortality figure, fine.
From a very quick assessment of some of the studies i have read, the 10% number is a fairly universal number. Some are higher, some lower, depending on species, temp, bait etc.
JJ wrote:
2%? 5%? 10%? What the actual number is, or should be for calculation purposes is outside my pay area of education and expertise.
fishnpole wrote:
10 per cent is NO WHERE near what we had. If you would’ve fished Mille Lacs this year, you would have seen few, if any dead fish either floating on the water, or lying on the beaches. If you think 10% is close, you’re as stupid as the Treaty Management.
I’m sorry if the science doesn’t agree with your opinion. Denying the existence and results of peer reviewed science doesn’t make it invalid.
If you’d like to learn more about hook mortality: click here
If you’d like to learn more about the peer review process; click here
Joe Scegura wrote:
JJ I agree with you. Some fish are always going to die.I just argue that jig fishing will be the solve all to this issue. I’m stating if you use the proper tool and technique then hook line fishing is just as safe or safer than jig fishing.
10/4
On the other hand there are those who legitimately believe that they have a 0.15% hooking mortality figure attached to their fishing practices.
This, simply is not reality. Unless every study done has been wrong.
2%? 5%? 10%? What the actual number is, or should be for calculation purposes is outside my pay area of education and expertise. Making any argument that says hooking mortality is less than 1%, no matter how perfect we handle the fish is unrealistic.
kroger3 wrote:
Joe Scegura wrote:
If you go through the gill area with a small hemostat and rotate the small hook out of the gut without touching a gill the fish is going to live. Plain and simple.
BINGO! Someone else with a little common sense!
“common sense” is all too uncommon.
All hook and line fishing has some hooking mortality. If you’d like to argue about the actual mortality figure, fine.
But if you are denying hooking mortality exists based on your visual observation, you are ignorant of basic scientific measures and practices. Not all fish who will die, will die immediately.
From a very quick assessment of some of the studies i have read, the 10% number is a fairly universal number. Some are higher, some lower, depending on species, temp, bait etc.
You can’t.
This isn’t a Democracy (Representative or otherwise). Freedom of speech doesn’t apply.
The site owner has made it clear that the discussions can/should continue. When the fever pitch gets too high, the topic is locked. And in days/weeks the next one will flourish.
And so the cycle will continue. Nothing is solved, no one changes any minds. The sides have both dug in.
Oldstar wrote:
Exactly! And we can’t get traction and leverage by just being quiet and letting this injustice go unprotested. We must continue to beat the dead horse JJ to educate people and get more people behind the movement. Any action that we can do is a move in the right direction toward equal rights and protection of the resources in our state. Yes, the Supreme court ruled in favor of the tribe by 1 vote, but that is not the final chapter. Executive power could greatly change this situation.
No. You are not listening to a single word.
Executive power cannot change this, it would require ratification by the Senate.
Wasting time with poorly written, and illogical petitions, is doing just that.
There is no movement. Your cause is the same ignorant loudmouths, calling for the same failed proposals, that you’ve failed on for the last 20 years.
You are beating a dead horse, and you will continue to fail until the approach changes direction. Play chess, not checkers.
I’m out
There you go snow, that would be actual leverage.
That is the single biggest factor being overlooked, by your side.
Leverage. If you want to negotiate, you need to have something, that you can use. Something the opposition wants.
Right now the tribes have all the leverage they need to keep getting their way. Instead of wasting your time, and resources on silly petitions, and keyboard commando complaints, create some leverage.
The last proposal that the actually had a chance to shifting the paradigm here in MN was the Racino proposals of 2012.
fishnpole wrote:
All agreements between nations and people can be and are adjusted to meet desires of both sides. History proves you shouldn’t be able to pick and choose what treaty or laws you want enforced.
Treaty management has proven in the last nearly 20 years that it does NOT work. If it DID we wouldn’t have a C&R season that is doomed to be CLOSED by July.
Also, JJ, what do you think about the jurisdictional dispute that got us here?
(Let me remind you.)
The Band says they own the whole south end of the lake from Garrison all the way to Big Point.
The State and County authorities say they DON’T.
Neither side is giving an inch.Let me hear those pearls of wisdom, buddy.
You
Have
No
Leverage
nothing, nil, nada, null, goose egg, naught, zero, zilch, zip, zippo
The State and County won’t intervene, until they stop collecting property tax revenue. Until then the Tribe can buy all they want, and claim all they want. Once they play their hand and stop paying property taxes, the State will step in, and a court battle will ensue.
You need to get out of your vapid world on the shores of the lake, and look at the issue from a much more broad perspective. Look at the tribal agreements across the nation over the last 30 years. The courts have consistently come down on the side of the violated (Tribes).
Every single decision made here and made in other court battles, with other tribes, effects what happens on ML. Don’t be so obtuse as to believe these issues are limited to your location.
fishnpole wrote:
I guess I’m pretty delusional, JJ, but I’m of the opinion that we are all humans. We are here on earth together and we should all have the same rights and the same opportunities to enjoy life and everything God has created in this world.
Why should 2 percent of the population be allowed to fish and keep 10 walleyes any size per day and the other 98 per cent of the population not have any? Why should they be allowed to bring in gill nets and net thousands of pounds of an endangered fish like the Mille Lacs walleye when it is banned to all others?
The Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe has only been here on Mille Lacs for 10 years before the first Europeans came, and settled what is NOW the State of Minnesota, so I’m not buying that this is their traditional land. This is where I disagree with all this “sovereign nation” crap.
Your lack of understanding of how treaties work, and the nuance of tribal sovereignty is laughable. No matter what scientific data is presented, you will never be satisfied with the results, because you have an explicit bias. And you seem unable to recognize the practical limitations of the political landscape.
When the case was argued before the SCOTUS, your side was defeated. The Court will not take this issue back on. You are the defeated people in this case.
I think the whole thing is a boondoggle, there we can agree. But rather than hold on to the way it was, you have to operate in the realm of reality.
Trump ain’t gonna change this.
All the CASST and PERM’s are a wasted investment, no matter how well the trail lawyers convince you of otherwise (nice job on the last one one BTW).
The only PRACTICAL solution is to work with the Tribes (and not JUST the Mille Lacs band), on viable solutions for the future. The netting isn’t going away.
fishnpole wrote:
Anyhow……I just wrote the President a letter on the subject. I’m sure there are a LOT of you out there that would like to have the ear of the guy that can actually settle the mess with one stroke of his pen. Write him a note……………https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
How delusional are you?
Arriving on horseback Thursday, newly minted Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke pledged he would devote more resources to national parks, boost the morale of department employees and bolster the sovereignty of American Indian tribes.
…snip…
An employee with the Bureau of Indian Affairs from Montana’s Northern Cheyenne tribe played a veterans honor song on a hand drum as Zinke approached the department on C Street NW, while 350 employees waited outside to greet him. In his email, Zinke noted that he was “proud to be an adopted member of the Assiniboine-Sioux from Northeast Montana,” and that his commitment to respecting tribal sovereignty and the rights of U.S. territories “is not lip service.”
(emphasis mine)
bullwinkled wrote:
This issue went to the Supreme Court and the tribes won. All the bitching and bellyaching, crappy video and poorly written petitions are not going to change anything. Went to Mille lacs a couple of weeks ago and on the wall of the entrance road pay shack was a crude hand drawn poster with words to the effect “Save a walleye, spear an Indian” Since our party had already rented two houses there, we stayed. We will not be going back. My problem with LSF allowing a forum to go on like this is that it does foster hatred and ultimately racism. The moderators intent to not allow open racist comments does not mitigate the hatred that is stirred up by a thread of this nature. I am done with LSF until they clean this site up by banning this crap.As annoying as these topics are, and as much dead horse beating goes on, banning discussion doesn’t serve anyone either.
Given the choice between banning and losing thin skinned posters that seldom participate in the forum in any capacity…
NateP wrote:
It is a 60 JJ. I don’t have the time right now to dedicate tuning to the gun. If I lived up your way I’d buy you a steak dinner or 3 to tune it up. 😀Could you recommend a good ammo to use to prevent issues?
Thank you.
If it won’t run CCI Minimags, you have an issue!
In all reality, avoid standard velocity loads and see what happens. Pick a high velocity load like MiniMags, Federal AM22 etc.
NateP wrote:
It might have been 15 plus years since I’ve touched it. And I want to say there might have been a issue with ejecting casings. I cant remember. If all it needed was a cleaning I would have done that. 60+ bucks is worth it to me so I can give a safe rifle to my daughter. Tim, I will be calling your recommendation in the morning. Thank you.Number one malfunction on auto loading 22’s is dirt/gunk. I’ve “fixed” more 22’s with a cleaning, than I can count.
Second thing, feeding/ejection issues often lay at the foot of the ammo. A lot of underpowered ammo and a dirty gun are a recipie for malfunctions.
If you want to maintenance yourself, I recommend the NRA assembly manuals. They are a tremendous resource.
If you are working with a Marlin Model 60, they are a bit interesting, but fairly easy once you slow down and tackle them methodically.
